Davide Lerner su Haaretz Israel is incomparably stronger than Hamas – but it will never win: Interview with Hamas leader in Gaza
Hamas’ leader in Gaza says that though Israel is
incomparably stronger than the Islamist group, it will never win. He
added that if war does break out, Israel will have no choice but to try
to reoccupy Gaza.
Yahya Sinwar made the
comments as part of an exclusive interview with the Italian daily la
Repubblica, a partial Hebrew translation of which was published in
Israel on Thursday. Haaretz has obtained lengthy extracts of the
interview, slated to run in the Italian newspaper and Israeli daily
Yedioth Ahronoth in full on Friday.
In
the interview with Francesca Borri, his first with a Western outlet,
Sinwar called for a cease-fire with Israel, speaking of a “historic
opportunity for change.”
Sinwar said neither side is interested in a new war. “We cannot prevail in a confrontation with a nuclear power,” he said, “but likewise, [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu
would have nothing to gain from a new war: This would be the fourth
war, and they cannot deliver the same results they delivered with the
first, the second, the third. … Eventually, they would have to reoccupy Gaza.”
According to the Hamas
leader, this would be a problem for Israel due to its settlements. “At a
time when Netanyahu is trying to get rid of Palestinians in the West
Bank while keeping a Jewish majority, I don’t think he would be
interested in annexing a territory with an extra 2 million
Palestinians,” he said of the coastal enclave.
“If you know war, you
don’t want war,” he added. “I’m not saying I won’t fight anymore. I’m
saying I want no more wars. I want the end of the siege.”
Meanwhile, the Israeli army announced Thursday
it was significantly boosting its forces in the south, citing its
policy to “thwart terrorism and prevent penetration into Israel along
the Gaza border fence.”
The
decision was made after a situation assessment by Israel Defense Forces
Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Gadi Eisenkot and senior IDF and Shin Bet
security service officials.
The army’s decision was made ahead of the expected demonstrations on Friday along the border,
out of concern over a possible escalation. The army is also preparing
for mortar and rocket fire from Gaza at Israeli communities near the
border, which could lead to a wider escalation, and is therefore
deploying the Iron Dome defense system. The IDF said it was “ready for
different scenarios.”
'War by other means'
Asked why Hamas had
invested millions in creating attack tunnels when half of Gaza’s
citizens are facing hunger, Sinwar said he was glad Hamas had invested
in tunnels, because “otherwise we would be all dead. At times the
Israelis wouldn’t even let in milk,” he said, implying that Hamas uses
the tunnels for goods and not only for military purposes.
Pressed
on whether he feels the weight of responsibility for the dire
humanitarian conditions in Gaza, Sinwar said “the responsibility lies
with those who have sealed the border and not with those who tried to
open it.”
Addressing the ongoing negotiations for a prolonged cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, reportedly being mediated by Egypt, he told the Italian journalist that the end of the siege was the crucial component in any future deal.
“If a cease-fire means we stop being bombed but keep not having water, no electricity, nothing at all, and we are still under siege, then it makes no sense,” Sinwar said.
“The siege is a form
of war by other means. But if it ends, and Gaza little by little goes
back to being normal, if we start getting investments and development –
and not only humanitarian aid, because we are not beggars – we want to
work, study, travel, like everyone else. … If that happens, the
cease-fire can be extended, and extended again and again.
“But there is no peace without justice and freedom. I don’t want the peace of [living in a] grave,” he said.
Pressed on whether a
cease-fire would mean no hostile acts at all, Sinwar emphasized that it
meant “nothing from here, nothing from there.”
Referring to the
incendiary kites and balloons that Gazans have been sending into Israel
in recent months, Sinwar said, “They cannot be considered a weapon – a
fire extinguisher is enough to put them out. They are just a message,
and the message is that you [the Israelis] are incomparably stronger,
but you will never win. Never.”
Asked what would
happen if a cease-fire failed, he said, “It’s simple: If we are
attacked, we will strike back. I think we all have the instruments to
understand whether an incident is caused by extremists or not.” However,
he added: “For once, can we ask the question, ‘What happens if it does
work?’ It could give us the right motivation to make it work, don’t you
think? If for a moment we stopped and imagined Gaza like it used to be –
have you ever seen Gaza pictures from the 1950s? When in summer
everyone was coming here on holiday?” Speaking of the cease-fire, Sinwar
said the question is not whether Hamas can be trusted, but whether
Israel can be trusted as it always initiated war. He added that building
trust requires making the first step together.
'Likud doesn’t recognize Palestine'
At the end of the
interview, Borri asked Sinwar why he does not use the world Israel. “Did
you hear the word Palestine, on the other side? ... Netanyahu is from
Likud, and Likud does not recognize Palestine. And what about [the late]
Rabbi [Ovadia] Yosef … who wanted all of us to be dead?” he said of the
former Sephardi chief rabbi and spiritual leader of the ultra-Orthodox
party Shas.
When asked about Hamas’ relationship with Fatah,
Sinwar said problems between the two Palestinian factions are also a
by-product of the siege. “I understand Fatah,” he said. “If they were to
agree to a unity government with us, they wouldn’t get a dollar
anymore, they’d risk going bankrupt.”
To Sinwar, the
political situation among the Palestinians is not dissimilar to the one
in the years leading up to Israel’s “disengagement” from Gaza.
“In 2005 they [the
Israelis] left, but they simply restructured the occupation: Before,
they occupied from inside; now they seal the border,” he said. “Do you
think that governing Gaza is like governing Paris?” Sinwar asks. “Since
many years we were governing in many municipalities because we are
renowned for our efficiency and honesty. Then, in 2006, we won general
elections, and the world isolated us.
“There is no
electricity, it’s true. And this has consequences on all the rest. But
do you think we don’t have any engineers? That we cannot build a
turbine? Of course we are capable of doing that – but how? What can you
do with nothing in your hands? Even the best surgeon is helpless with
instruments such as a knife and a fork to carry out the operation,” he
said.
Similarly, Sinwar dismissed the Oslo Accords as “just a way to distract the world while settlement expansion was compromising all prospects for a Palestinian state.”
At one point, Sinwar
argues that Gaza could become prosperous, and repeatedly praises the
youth of Gaza for its steadfastness and energy.
“Did you see how
brilliant our youth are? Full of talent, despite everything. … They use
old fax machines, old computers, a group of youths in their 20s has
built a 3-D printer on their own to manufacture the medical equipment
that’s missing. This is Gaza. It’s not just poverty. Not just kids with
no shoes. Gaza can be like Singapore or Dubai. Let’s let time go by, let
it heal the wounds.
“Around 45 percent of
the population here is less than 15 years old. They don’t even know
what is Hamas, what is Zionism. At night they walk by the sea and wonder
what the world is like beyond the waves. Looking at them breaks you –
it would break anyone,” he said.
‘Like a Bar Mitzvah’
Sinwar spent over 20
years in Israeli prisons and says he had a better time there than “in
the prison of Gaza,” as at least there he had “electricity, water and
books.” He was released in the prisoner swap with Israel in 2011, when
Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was returned in exchange for 1,027
Palestinian prisoners.
With the bodies of
fallen soldiers Hadar Goldin and Oron Shaul still in Gaza, and Israeli
civilians Abera Mengistu and Hisham al-Sayed still missing in the Strip,
a possible prisoner exchange remains high on Sinwar’s agenda.
“The issue of
prisoners is crucial, it’s a moral issue to me. Your readers might think
that prisoners are terrorists, but in here we all get arrested at some
stage. It’s a step to becoming an adult, like the Bar Mitzvah,” he said.
While a swap deal
must be included in any future deal, Sinwar said he would not accept
international forces in Gaza. “It would be like Srebrenica,” he said,
referring to the UN-protected, Muslim-populated town in eastern Bosnia
besieged by Serb forces throughout the war. The Serbs overran the
enclave and massacred some 8,000 men and boys in July 1995.
Criticizing the
international community, Sinwar said Gaza only ever received attention
when there is violence and blood – but the problem “is not the
resistance but rather the occupation.
“Did you see the
video where the soldier shoots at us and keeps laughing?” he asked.
“Once they [the Jewish people] used to be people like Freud, Einstein,
Kafka. They were famous for their mathematics and philosophy – today
only for the drones. What a shame.”
Sinwar said that
although he “learned a lot” from spending time in jail, he “wouldn’t
wish that on anyone” – not even “to those who, from beyond the barbed
wire, shoot at us as [if] we were bowling pins, and then they laugh:
They don’t know one day they could end up for 25 years in The Hague,” he
added.
At one point in the interview, Sinwar explains to Borri how everyone in the room had been affected by the conflict.
“I was in prison for
25 years. Basem [one of the advisers] lost a child in an Israeli army
raid. Your translator lost two brothers. The man who served us tea: his
wife died of an infection – it was just a small cut but there were no
antibiotics. She died just like that. For something you can heal if you
just have access to a pharmacy.
“Do you think it’s
easy for us?” he asked. “To forget everything, to suddenly start again?
But let’s start with this cease-fire. Let’s give our children the life
we never had. And they will become better than us. Now, emotions are
still too strong. The memories, the traumas. The resentments. We all
need to retrieve our clarity of thought here. Not just us. Everyone. And
in 20 years, 30 years, maybe those living here will see the world in a
totally different way.”
Sinwar spoke to Borri
over a five-day period, in which she followed him around cafés,
ministries and hospitals across the Gaza Strip. After a partial
translation of the interview was published in Yedioth Ahronoth on
Thursday, billed as an exclusive, Hamas issued a statement saying the
Israeli daily misrepresented the text. It added that Sinwar had only
spoken to Borri because she was not an Israeli and the interview had
been intended only for la Republica and The Guardian. Hamas also said
the Hebrew translation was not accurate and twisted Sinwar’s words.
At the end of their
interview, Sinwar explained to the journalist why he had granted her an
interview, despite her previous reports revealing that Hamas had cracked
down on Fatah activists in Gaza during the border protests.
“Your article was
very hard on us. And on top of that, your work is regularly translated
in Hebrew. And yet you are here. Again, because you have a profound
respect for us, and we have a profound respect for you. Sometimes, the
messenger is also the message. You will leave now and you will tell all
this. Will they read you? Will they listen to you? I don’t know. But I
did [take] my step forward.”
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