The Italian journalist who interviewed the leader of Hamas in Gaza: I Contrary to what was published in ידיעות אחרונות Yedioth Ahronoth, I did not say to Yahia Sinwar that he was being interviewed for an Israeli newspaper. According to her the paper distorted what she told Sinwar regarding this matter. Despite this she also has positive things to say: "Good on them for making it a cover story. I offered the interview to major media outlets around the world, and most of them refused because Sinwar is a terrorist." Yedioth Ahronoth: Sinwar knew he was being interviewed for Yedioth Ahronoth".
By Itamar BZ [Itamar Benzaquen]
Italian journalist Francesca Borri, who interviewed the leader of Hamas in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, dispels the fog over the conflicting versions provided by Yedioth Ahronoth and Hamas. In a conversation with The Seventh Eye, Borri says she did not tell Sinwar that she was interviewing him for an Israeli newspaper, as it was described in the Yedioth Ahronoth interview, but that it was his first interview with the Western media. Sinwar thought he was being interviewed for the Italian daily La Repubblica, she says.
According to Borri, Sinwar was aware that some of her articles were translated into Hebrew and published in Yedioth Ahronoth, but he was not explicitly told that this was an interview for Yedioth Ahronoth.
Borri, in a conversation with The Seventh Eye, expresses regret the fuss over peripheral aspects of the interview, as she puts it. "This interview was so complicated to pull off, I've been working on it since April, but once it was published, I started receiving thousands of calls from Israelis and Palestinians and from all over the world. Instead of dealing with what was said in the interview, everyone concentrates on the wrong thing – did he giva an interview to an Israeli newspaper, She says in a phone call from Italy. "I was interviewed by the Washington Post, but this exposure was wasted on discussing a tangential issue."
Those who put the issue of exclusivity and precedence at the centre of the discourse were the editors of Yedioth Ahronoth, in the way which they edited and framed the interview - which occupied the newspaper's banner headline for two consecutive days. According to the framing provided by the newspaper, the Hamas leader in Gaza decided to appeal to the Israeli public and say that he was fed up with wars through an exclusive interview with Yedioth Ahronoth. Thus, straight up, the newspaper readers were informed on Thursday at the top of the front page.
It was made clear to those who delved deeper into the actual report that this was no exaggeration. Sinwar, they were told, was fully aware that the interview he gave the Italian journalist was an interview with an Israeli newspaper. However, Francesca Borri herself says otherwise - and reinforces the denial published by Hamas shortly after the publication.
Borri's interview with Sinwar is a journalistic achievement in every respect, but it may not be the particular achievement Yedioth Ahronoth purported to present to the readers. According to standard practice of the tabloid press, Yedioth Ahronoth tends to exaggerate the framing of events that roll across the pages of the newspaper. But in this case, it is more than framing. The words, "Why did you decide to be interviewed now, I asked Sinwar, and particularly to an Israeli newspaper?" were attributed to the journalist. Judging by the response in the newspaper, the interviewee did not even show a hint of disgust at the revelation that he was being interviewed by an Israeli newspaper: "Because now I see a real opportunity for change," he replied.
In the full version of the interview, which was published the following day in the weekend edition, the question appeared with slightly different wording: "This is the first time ever that you agree to talk to the Western media - and specifically to an Israeli newspaper. You have been the leader of Hamas in Gaza for almost two years. Why now?".
The terrorist leader's agreement to speak with Israeli media reverberated through the commentary columns accompanying the publication: Military correspondent Yossi Yehoshua and defence commentator Alex Fishman analysed the implications, and in house opinion writer Ben-Dror Yemini explained to the readers why the newspaper decided to interview Sinwar despite his "murderous activity." Other media outlets in Israel were quick to put out follow-up reports, in which it was emphasised that this was an interview that the Hamas leader knowingly gave to Yedioth Ahronoth,
In the Gaza Strip, the preliminary publication of Yedioth Ahronoth made waves. Hamas generally avoids public contacts with Israeli officials for fear of "normalisation" of relations with Israel. Against this background, shortly after the release of the brief interview on Thursday, Sinwar's office issued a statement stating that he was not told at any stage that Borri was interviewing him for an Israeli newspaper.
The Italian journalist, who specialises in covering conflict zones, was accused by the terrorist organisation of violating journalistic ethics. According to the statement, she lied about the media outlet for which she conducted the interview: According to Hamas, Borri introduced herself as a journalist for the Italian newspaper La Repubblica (in which the interview was published parallel to Yedioth Ahronoth) and the British Guardian (which didn’t publish the interview at all).
The statement added that a Hamas investigation revealed that Borri had never published articles in the Israeli media - a dubious statement, since in recent years Yedioth Ahronoth and Ynet had published several of her articles and columns. In fact, even during the interview itself, Sinwar tells her that he knows that her articles are regularly translated into Hebrew.
Yedioth Ahronoth rejected Sinwar's version completely. In an article published in the paper on Friday, which, in a rare move, remains uncredited, it was emphasised that despite the denials of the Gazan interviewee, he knew he was being interviewed for an Israeli newspaper. "Sinwar is knowingly lying," wrote the anonymous Yedioth Ahronoth journalist of, "he knew in advance, and agreed that the interview would be published jointly by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica and the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth, and both he and Hamas know Francesca Borri from previous articles of hers published by Yedioth Ahronoth from within the Gaza Strip. "
However, the journalist who interviewed Sinwar has a different version, which rejects Yedioth Ahronoth's version - and part of Hamas' one. In a conversation with The Seventh Eye, Borri says that Yedioth Ahronoth altered the wording of the first question she posed in the interview. She said she did not tell Sinwar that this was his first interview with an Israeli newspaper. "This was something that was not included in my question, and I complained about it to Yedioth," she says.
However, she added that it was clear to her that Sinwar knew that his words would also be published in Yedioth Ahronoth, because he knew about her connection to the Israeli newspaper. "I am a war correspondent, I was also in Syria and Iraq, and my security in such places is based on the fact that I act transparently with everyone. I live with the people I write about, they know everything about me and nothing is hidden - which is one of the reasons why people talk to me, "says Borri.
Yesterday, after the full version of the interview was published in Israel and Italy, Borri recorded a video monologue in which she tried to explain the discrepancies between the Hamas and Yedioth Ahronoth versions. Her statements indicate that when Yedioth Ahronoth editors’ translated her interview into Hebrew, they attributed to her the statement that this was an interview with an Israeli newspaper - a statement that was never made.
"In my first question to Sinwar, the Hebrew translation read, 'This is the first time you've spoken to the Israeli media' - no, no, no, my question was, 'Is this the first time you've been talking to the Western media?' I want to make this very clear "says Borri in the video. "Of course, I know very well how this whole thing started, because the problem is that I do not understand Hebrew. I do not speak Hebrew, so the moment I am translated into another language I do not speak, I rely on the translator.
Francesca Bori explains exactly what she said to Sinwar
Borri's words in the monologue were spoken in Italian and translated for The Seventh Eye (the full text is presented at the end of the article). The explanation she proposes sheds new light on Yedioth Ahronoth's framing that Sinwar "decided to convey a rare message to the Israeli public" - a claim that was printed prominently on the cover of the Weekly Supplement. "When Sinwar talks to me, Sinwar does not speak to Israel, he does not speak to Italy, Sinwar speaks to me, he speaks to Francesca, and of course through me he speaks to the world."
Borri clarifies that Sinwar indeed directs his words at the international community, which includes the Israeli public but makes sure to emphasise that "Sinwar's interview is by no means an interview aimed solely at the Israelis”. In another part of the monologue, the journalist notes that she is not Israeli or Jewish, but a freelance writer from Italy whose articles are translated into 24 languages. As noted, contrary to Hamas' announcement, it is implied that Sinwar knew that one of those languages is Hebrew.
"I do not work for the Israeli media," Borri clarified in her monologue, "to be translated into Hebrew does not necessarily mean working for the Israeli media or being Israeli or anything else." Sinwar was speaking to me, to Francesca, as a journalist who writes for La Repubblica and is translated across the world. "
In a conversation with The Seventh Eye, Borri explains that, despite her criticism of Yedioth Ahronoth, the newspaper deserves praise for the very decision to publish the interview with the Hamas leader. "Good on them for making it a cover story," she says. "I offered this interview to major media outlets around the world, and most of them refused because Sinwar is a terrorist."
Turning directly to the Israeli public she adds: "Don't waste this. Try to listen to the other side. On the way to Gaza I passed through Sderot, where I caught a taxi to the border, and the driver asked me if I was not afraid, and I told him: 'Do say a word to anyone, but I hope to interview Sinwar. "He stopped the taxi and said, 'If you meet him, tell him that we are tired of the rockets and the rest of it.'" This interview is for this guy - and for the rest of you. "
Editor of Yedioth Ahronoth: Sinwar knew exactly who he was being interviewed for.
Neta Livneh, editor of Yedioth Ahronoth, said in response: "Yahya Sinwar gave an interview to the Italian journalist Francesca Borri in his office in Gaza, and he knew in advance that the interview was for the Italian newspaper La Repubblica and Yedioth Ahronoth. Borri said the same explicitly in what she told us and which will be published tomorrow: 'Sinwar knew exactly that through me he speaks with the Israeli readership, and that the Israeli newspaper I write for is Yedioth Ahronoth."
"Borri is a longtime partner of Yedioth Ahronoth and has written several articles for us, some from within the Gaza Strip. In the interview Sinwar even refers to one of her previous articles we published. During the interview, conducted in his Gaza office, where the photos were also taken he also turns directly to the Israeli public and passes on messages. Any other version is a total lie. "
Francesca Bori's words in video monologue
"I’m Fancesca. I am sorry that after so many years I still do not speak enough Arabic, and today I prefer Italian over English, because my manner of expression is without a shadow of a doubt - I am Italian, I am an Italian journalist. To be more precise : I'm an Italian freelance. This does mean that I am completely free. I am completely independent. I have no contracts, I'm not Jewish, I'm not Israeli, I'm Italian.
"I wrote a lot, especially for a newspaper called Il Fatto Quotidiano, and for several months now I have been writing for La Repubblica, mainly for the weekly supplement, and of course, like every freelance, like any journalist, I get translated. I am translated into 24 languages, amongst them Hebrew. But when I get translated, let's say, for example, into Japanese, no one comes and says, no one thinks, that I work for the Japanese media. To me it seems clear. I'm just Francesca, I'm just an Italian freelancer. I am myself.
"Of course, I know very well how this whole started because the problem is that I do not understand Hebrew, so I do not speak Hebrew, so as soon as I get translated into another language that I do not speak, I rely on the translator. "In my first question to Sinwar, the Hebrew translation read, 'This is the first time you've spoken to the Israeli media' - no, no, no, my question was, 'Is this the first time you've been talking to the Western media?' I want to make this very, very clear.
"So, amongst other things, this is why I chose, to record a video, and not just issue a communique or something else. Because this is all I have to say. I want to say this not only in my own voice, but also with my own eyes. Because Ramallah is my home. Ramallah is my home, and I do not want to talk about normalisation in any way shape or form. When Sinwar talks to me, Sinwar does not speak to Israel, he does not speak to Italy. "Sinwar speaks to me, he speaks to Francesca. And through me to the rest of the world.
"Yesterday, the whole argument, the whole mess, started of course before the interview could even be read. The interview, and my introduction to the interview, I would like you to read it, because the introduction is for you. When Sinwar talks to me he talks to me to reach the rest of the world. The international community. Of course, the problem of the Palestinians is Israel, and therefore the Israelis are probably for you the special listeners, different from the rest, more important than the Italians or the French, that is obvious. But the Sinwar interview is by no means an interview aimed exclusively at Israelis.
"When Sinwar talks about the siege, he does not talk only to Israel, and when Sinwar talks about Oslo, he does not talk only to Israel." Sinowar speaks to the entire world that the entire world has responsibility for the siege of Gaza and, more generally, the Palestinian problem. Sinwar makes this very clear and he is right to do so. I do not want to hear the word 'normalisation', the idea that Sinwar was talking to Israel - what are we talking about, what are we talking about? - really, after a decade of conflict suddenly Sinwar talks to me and everything is solved: Jerusalem, the siege on Gaza, the refugees, the settlements, we solved everything, everything is fine with Israel, everything is normal? Come on!
I know how it all started. I explained to you how it all started.
But I am here to make it clear that I was completely transparent with Hamas - but above all, Hamas was absolutely honest with me, so I am here, because in the end I think we are all intelligent, we are all intelligent, and the Trapola, the trap we in now, the trap is clear to everyone, and I have to tell everyone that I did not expect anything like that. But what did I expect, in the sense of ... you know what the real problem is, that the interview with Sinwar is exceptional, was exceptional. Because Sinwar is exceptional, and I am here to say this as an Italian citizen, as a European citizen, and you know very well, that in my country and in the EU, and in the West in any way, Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and Sinwar is the head of a terrorist organisation.
"So, to sum it all up, once and for all: I'm a freelancer, I write in La Repubblica, translated into 24 languages, including Hebrew, and that's all Sinwar knew about me. Because it is the truth. I do not work for the Israeli media. And just to clarify, to make it really clear, when I say I am also translated into Hebrew- I have written more than a hundred articles on Palestine, and I also wrote a book, many years ago, my second book, and I have been translated into Hebrew four times, including this time. That's all.
"And one of those four times was in Hebron, a report from Hebron, and I was arrested, along with Issam [an unidentified person], and this is only to make it clear to you that being translated into Hebrew does not necessarily mean working for the Israeli media, or being an Israeli, or anything else. It means being yourself. Sinwar spoke to me, to Francesca, as a journalist who writes for La Repubblica and is translated across the whole world." Sinwar spoke through me to the entire world, and at the moment the entire world is talking about Sinwar and Gaza. So let us also talk about Gaza."
Translated by Yoni Molad for Middle East News Service edited by Sol Salbe, Melbourne, Australia.
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